Witness states that he is 55 years old and resides in Arizona. He was living in Tucson at the time of the raid in 1871 and when notice came that the Indians had robbed Juan Elias of some cattle. A party of twelve men or less started from here and met a party with Tomas Elias who had been trailing the cattle. When we met Tomas, Juan Elias asked Tomas how many dead cattle he had found on the road and he replied that counting cows and steers they had killed 50 head. He heard what they said as he was standing near them. They then followed the Indians as far as where the foot hills go into the valley of the San Pedro. He knew they were Indians because they recaptured one of the horses, and the Indians took the other 4 horses on. They had a fight and one of the Indians was killed. He saw the Indian and took his scalp; and a Mr. Zeckendorf sent it to Washington. The Indian scalped was an Apache the same as all the others. He saw one dead animal and more that they recaptured and Juan Elias took them to his ranch. This was in April, 1871. The cattle driven off were steers, cows and oxen. In those days average milk cows were worth $50 and the other cattle from $30 up. Meat was worth 25 cents a pound and more. He knew they were Juan Elias cattle by the ear-mark and brand. This occurred in Pima County, Arizona. Has no interest direct or indirect.

He is not related to Juan Elias. He has a claim against the Government for Indian depredation. The Indians stole the cattle at night and notice was received here in Tucson the next day at 11 o' clock. He lived in Tucson at that time but had never worked for Juan Elias. He was engaged in making adobes and planting.

He filed a claim for property taken by the Indians about 3 days ago. Mr. Martin, the claimant's counsel has it,--the papers are completed. Had not signed the papers yet. He has put his claim into Mr. Martin's hands with request to prepare the proper papers and file it.

Witness swore that he was 64 years old, resides here at St. Xavier and knows Juan Elias. The Indians stole two head of steers from Juan Elias in April, 1863 out here at St. Xavier. He was there at the time. It occurred in the night time and was discovered immediately afterwards. The Vaqueros went out and discovered the trail. Early

Was present at another raid about the last days of April, After coming back with the wounded man. Afterwards a scouting party started. They went after that band up the Arivaipa, and found forty head of the cattle stolen before: They ate some and distributed some around among the people and when they returned to Tucson they had 15 of 20 left, and they were distributed around amongst the volunteers. He didn't know whether they were distributed by the commanding officer or by Juan Elias. The cattle recovered belonged to Juan Elias, he knew them by the brand and ear-marks. This raid occurred in Pima County, Arizona. Cattle were dear in those days and such cattle as these at the time they were stolen were worth $30, $35, $40, $45, up to $50.. He has no interest in the claim.

Is not related to the claimant and has no claim of his own against the Government or the Indians, nor has any relative any such claims that he knows of. Was born and raised at Saint Xavier where these cattle were taken. Didn't know exactly how many cattle Juan Elias had there at that time, but he was a cattle man and had a great many. A herd, some two-year olds and some older. Did not know how many of the cattle were two-year olds. It was a large herd--some 800 or 900. No cows taken at that time. Thinks $35 would be a fair average price. They would be worth more than less. Didn't say in his direct examination from $30 up. Said some $30, some $40, and some $50. His idea is $30. he thinks as the value

The Indians had no provocation to make this raid that he knew of--only their inclination to rob and steal. They only went out to look for them, not to have any trouble. Is sure the man there never did anything to provoke them. There were exactly 40 head of the cattle recovered. He counted them.

Is 46 years old, resides on the San Pedro river, and has known Juan Elias since he (witness) was born and raised here. Knows about the Indian raid in November 1861; was at the ranch called the Punta de Agua, the other side of San Xavier, in Pima County, Arizona. He was there the night before and the Indians attacked about sunrise in the morning. Took his breakfast early that morning and crossed the river. Seeing the Indians had made an attack there he went towards San Xavier. Was looking for some of his own horses and not finding them continued on afoot. The Indians having taken the road to San Xavier (heard the barking of dogs and knew the Indians were ahead of him) he went to the riverside in the brush in the foot-hills. Then continued his journey to San Xavier, was tired and crawled in under cover. The Indians stole and carried off all the stock and horses around the ranches there and killed the wife of this man (a Mexican present) Venturo Carriel. They took cattle and horses--mares belonging to Juan Elias but can't swear exactly the amount they took, because they took cattle belonging to everybody around there. Cannot approximate the number. Don't know how many they left. They took a great deal of property but don't know amounts. Cattle were worth at that time from $35 up as high as $50, according to their class. Knew the kind of mares Juan Elias had at that time, they were worth from $35 to $40. Knew the kind of saddle horses he had at the time; had seen them ridden and some were worth less than $40 and some

Not related to the claimant and has no claim of his own depredations. This raid as in November, 1861. Does not remember very well how old he was at the time. Does not remember how many years it was. Can be told by the dates. Hasn't much knowledge how to make the calculation. Was not married at the time. Had formerly lived right at the Juan Elias ranch. Lived there 4 years and moved. The depredation was shortly after he moved. The attack was recently made after he was away from there. It was not more than 15 days after. He was living near the ranch of Juan Elias, at the place called Punta de Agua. Two miles or 2 1/2. States of his own knowledge that Juan Elias had mares, horses and cattle at the time of the depredation. Estimates that he had 50 to 60 mares at the time,--not positive as to the amount. They were fairly good mares raised in this country and others that were better. Couldn't state the breed. They were native mares of this country. There wasn't many of a different class at that time: one or two or a few better mares. They were used for breed mares or any work they could be utilized for. Never saw them used in harness or under the saddle. Did not know the average age. Thinks $35 a head would be the fair market value for that herd

Work oxen if good were worth $50. a head. The night before the raid he stopped at the house of Johnson and two or three others living around there, and was in one when the Indians attacked. Santiago, the Dutchman and Johnson lived in the same neighborhood. Is a citizen of the U.S.

Is 72 years old, resides in Tucson, and has known Juan Elias since he was a child. Knows that the Indians took all his cattle and horses in a raid in November 1861. The Indians came and made an attack on all the ranches--Elias cattle--all of his stock--was out in the bush. They all came at once but on account of the brush and timber he couldn't say how many of them. There was a great many, and not only stole Elias' cattle but stole cattle from other ranches and took them away. All the people they could round up started in pursuit from San Xavier and the ranches. They followed the Indians, running them, and the Indians would separate; and some would follow up one crowd and some another, and they never caught up with them. He followed

He has a claim for Indian depredation committed at this time. Has testified within the last week in the case of Fritz Contzen for cattle lost at that time. Has testified in his own case, in the case of Gertrudes Herrerras and case of Francisco Gomez. Remember what he said in Contzen's case. Said they were Eskimizen's and other Indians. Thinks he stated they were Chiricahuas in that band. All the Indians out here of Eskimizens are the same--Arivaipa and White Mountain are the same. States now there were White Mountains, Chiricahaas and Pinals, because they all band together--some from one place and some from another. The only way you can dis-

He is 57 years old, resides here in Tucson and has known Juan Elias for 25 or 30 years. In 1867 was working for the Government at Camp Grant--on the 21 of May, 1867, 3 men came in this direction who

Never saw the dead men that he thought the Indians had killed. Was working two or 3 miles from Camp Grant more or less, when those cattle were taken. Defended the cattle the best way he could by arms. When the attack was made we were working in the field with the cattle and he had just gone in the brush to

Is 65 years old and lives in Tucson. The claimant is his brother. Knows about a raid that occurred in April, 1868 out near Silver Lake in which some of Juan's cattle were taken. Was in here in Tucson at the time. The man in charge herding the cattle came to Tucson to inform us that the cattle had been stolen by the Apaches. Juan Elias and some others in Tucson started to follow the Indians. Witness was sick and didn't go. He went out to "cut the trail" and he calculated that there were 100 cattle more or less. Has had experience in trailing Indians and been employed by the Government in that capacity. Has been a guide at different times since 1865. Knows the value of cattle such as were taken at that time. Cattle then were worth not less than $40 from that upwards. Some of the cattle wee recovered.

The cattle my brother lost were the cattle of this country--raised here. Herd of cattle, cows, oxen, heifers and steers. Abut 35 or 40 head of small cattle were left in the corral and let out in the morning. The prices were well known here on account of the scarcity of cattle and the sales made to the troops. His brother Juan was well posted on the price of cattle and had charge of and handled the cattle on the ranch. Taking one with another the cattle would be worth not less than $40. Such a thing as the cattle as $25 being a fair market value per hand might be possible, according to the owner's value of them. He has no depredation claim.

Knows that a raid was committed on his brother in 1867, 3 miles north of Fort Grant, and at that time witness was then in the field. Before they stole these cattle they attacked him with his servants in the field. Three or four days before this he was at the Post as a guide and there was an Indian prisoner there; the commanding officer said to witness take this Indian down to the ranch, he wants to farm. After the Indian came to the ranch, three men were working there that wanted to come to Tucson and the Indian

If an Indian speaks to witness he understands and can judge more or less what tribe he belongs to; witness understands words of Apache, but does not mean to say he speaks the language. He can tell by the tracks, where, or not, it is an Apache track. There is a difference in the way they sole their moccasins and the manner of making. There is no other Indian that uses the same class of moccasin, or that can make the style that an Apache does. They make a slim narrow moccasin and draw it up at the toe to a fine point, with a toe-piece that turns up. They have a heel piece, what we would call a 1/2 sole.,--not full but a piece. Sometimes they put an extra piece on the sole and heel. This is when the soles wear out and they don't have an opportunity to put on new soles. The ex-

Is 45 years old, lives in Tucson, and knows Juan Elias who is his brother. In November 1861 about sunrise the Indians attacked the Punta de Agua. The ranch of Juan was a mile this side of the Punta. They first attacked the Punta and then continued the attack on up towards the other ranches. Five mounted Indians arrived at the house. There was a woman about 100 yards from the house and one of the Indians killed her with a lance. The Indians then passed on and turned round and drove off the cattle. Then people there from San Xavier and vicinity started out to follow them. The Indians built breastworks and the other Indians continued to drive away the stock.

Has no claim against the Government for depredations. The Indians killed that morning were killed at Punta de Agua

We were accustomed to guard cattle--we corralled them and night and turned them loose in the morning, and the reason the Indians got that large band of cattle was that we turned them loose in the morning and they were all together. It was customary to look after cattle and guard them. At the raid in 1871 the Indians stole the cattle in the night--the Apaches. Knew they were Apaches by the trail and the direction they took. At this time witness rounded them up in the evening and in the morning he went out to cut tracks to see if any of them had left. Always about daybreak in handling cattle you ride round to see how they are getting on and that was the time he struck the trail of the Indians that stole them, and he got a fellow to go with him and follow them; also sent a man to Tucson to notify them and to tell Juan Elias of the robbery and to meet witness the other side of Tongue Verde because he knew where they were going. Followed them near to the San Pedro river and caught up with them. Saw 5 Indians horseback--Apaches,--Arivaipas. Got 7 of the cattle back. He counted 50 head of dead cattle and then there was the 7 recovered. Saw the dead cattle on the trail before reaching the mountains. The Indians lanced the cattle--fifty. They were valued at $30 to $35. Knows they drove off that number because he saw them--counted the dead ones. Was working on the ranch when this raid was made. No provocation was given the Indians to make that raid. As a precaution used to round them up in the evening and put them in a place to graze and feed during a night. The raid was at Punta de Agua, Pima County, Arizona. In 1860 about 6 in the evening Juan told him to take the cattle out to the pasture at the edge of the little foothills. The field was at the foot of the hill, and they took the cattle on the little elevation above. The next morning when he went out found the trail of the Indians; saw where they had taken the cattle; and followed about 100 yards to see the direction they drove. They were Juan Elias cattle. Witness did not follow at that time--Juan did. Oxen were worth at that time $100. No provocation was given to make that raid which was in Pima County, Arizona; may be a mile or a

Not certain whether he testified about the raid of 1860 yesterday. In the raid of 1871 it was about 30 miles from where they commenced killing the cattle to where he found the last one--didn't measure and not positive. Is sure he counted right. The cattle consisted of cows, big and little steers. The 7 we brought back were found at the fight when we attacked the Indians. We were following them closely on their trail and they kept killing these cattle. They slowed up and we caught up so close that they abandoned these 7 head. We were fighting them at the time we got the cattle back. Did not see the 6 oxen that were taken in December out here. Had seen them before, they were native cattle of this country. They were different ages. Some 8 and 10 years old. They were ordinary cattle, but worth more in those days than fine cattle are now. They were work cattle and tame, and you could handle them the same as a horse.

Is 54 years old and resides in Tucson, Pima County, Arizona, and is the claimant in this case. In November, 1871, he was in Tucson and about 7 or 8 o'clock in the morning a messenger notified him of the raid. Then commenced seeing and talking to different people in Tucson. He got a party together to go out in the vicinity of San Xavier. When he got out there in the valley the Indians had all gone and the fighting at the Punta del Agua all over. Went out in the party and cut tracks, himself and brother; and then returned to San Xavier. Found there in the valley, the dead Indian and saw the woman that had been killed. Saw two Indians and heard that one was a chief from the White Mountains. They were Apaches. Witness did not follow the Indians.

Is a Mexican by birth. At the time of his birth he and his parents were citizens of Old Mexico. Had been in business for himself since 1856--before that was working for his father. Was 18 years old when he went into business for himself,--planting corn, beans, wheat and barley. Followed that business, with raising cattle, up to the time of the raid, was born in 1838. Was about 23 years old at the time of the raid. Was successful in business and always worked hard. The cattle on the outside may have been 300, or 600, 800, or 1000 yards away from the corral. Couldn't tell whether cattle outside of the corral that morning. Was short that many and knew exactly how many cattle he had. Rounded up and counted the cattle every day to put them in the corrals. Did not leave any outside for if they did they would likely be gone in the morning. The cattle were not all put in the corral that evening because one man Venture Curroel, a herder, looked out for those on the range. Everyone that was missed concluded that the Indians had stolen. They took them within sight and were looking at them from the town of San Xavier: Papagos, Mexicans and Americans all saw them. Does not know that some of those stock was lost and not taken by the Indians. There were no cattle thieves in the country except the Indians. It was seldom you lost a cow or calf. The Papagos might kill one for beef but it was rare. There were 6 horses in the corral that night and the balance outside. Can't say how far from the corral. They had been grazing all around in the brush up at Punta de Agua. As the

The Apaches were instigators of these quarrels. Was born in Tubac, County of Pima, Territory of Arizona up the Santa Cruz River. Was born in 1838. Since that time has lived in Tucson.

Knows of his own knowledge that when the whites had these contests with the Indians, the Indians were the aggressors. One time witness was there but not the others. Was present May 7, 1863 in Araivaipa Canyon. The Apaches were the aggressors when witness was present. Can answer when he was not present,--because they (Apaches) were about fighting the Papagos, Mexicans and Americans and were stealing from all of them. Any battles he was not present he does not swear to. Before he lost these cattle he was not present at any contest between the whites and Apaches. In February, 1859 they took cattle from Guillermo Etillas and witness with 8 or 10 men followed and killed 2 of them. That was not the first time (1863) he was present at a contest. There were other times before that. Cannot remember how many times before that he had fights with the Indians. Don't know that he had something of a reputation for fighting Indians. The Apaches knew that he was fighting and scalping them,--every chance he had. Cannot understand the English language.

The raid in February, 1863, was no fighting, the Indians (Apaches) just came and stole some cattle. He followed them about a mile the other side of the San Pedro river in the direction of Araivipa; in the night time. He was first discovered by two herders who out the tracks in the direction of the Tongue Verde. He followed them at that time but never got up with them. Knew it was Indians

I estimate there wasn't less than 175 or maybe 180 head driven off. He is a cattle-man and accustomed to the range. 150 head might leave the same trail--the trail was over 40 yards in width. It would be impossible to count the tracks--but he makes the estimate of his experience. He first answered that they were worth $25 without giving it proper thought--then refreshed his memory by the petition. The cattle were all big and a great many steers--cows and steers were California cattle. There were no heifers and no calves--large cows and steers and none worth less than $25

When he stated about a power of attorney, he referred to the power given to her on account of her husband's death. She was acting for him. When he answered the cattle was $35 a head did not look at the figures or words, but answered rapidly. This raid as at Xavier Mission, Pima Co., Arizona. They stole a hundred of cattle in March, 1863, during the night time. He knew how he lost those cattle because he followed and caught up with them--himself and 8 or 9 men. This was the time his brother was shot in the head. They were Apache Indians from Araivaipa. He was in Tucson and word came to him of the loss of the cattle from San Xavier. He got men here and started after them--also his brother Tomas Elias. Followed them to the other side of the San Pedro river on a trail which went to Agua Caliente. They got up that night with the Indians on horseback, the guard that was left behind the robbing Indians which were ahead. They attacked those Indians that night, about 1 1/2 miles from where the robbers were. His brother was shot in the head that night with a bullet. No Indians fell that night. About 100 head of cattle, from the tracks, where lost that night. Knew the number by the trail. Never got any of these cattle back. The Indians split up in different bands. Afterwards got some of the cattle in the Araivaipa Canyon and butchered and ate them--the same campaign. Got 40 then--ate some these and returning and distributed the balance here. Col. Firmens distributed them under martial law. It was during the war. Col. Firmens commanded, and Captain Tidball was with us. Some of those cattle were used by the Government. Capt. Tidball and 25 soldiers were with us. (Objection to

The 22nd of May, 1867, they were planting 3 miles below camp Grant, he and Jesus M. Elias. On he 20th of May, 3 of the men working for them asked for a settlement for the purpose of coming here to Tucson. There was an old Pinal Indian living there with some children and the commanding officer at Grant had this Indian at the Post. During the time he and his brother were planting the Indian asked permission of the officer to come and live at our place--he wanted to plant a little corn and pumpkins. This old Indian asked permission to come to Tucson with the 3 men whose accounts had been settled, leaving the Indian woman and two children at our ranch. At Canada-del-Oro some Indians attacked this party in the evening and killed the 3 men. Early the next morning the Indian arrived at our camp and appeared to be scared and excited. His moccasins were full of stickers from the grass. He got back on the 22nd of May and my brother and Manuel Coronado got hold of him and asked what was the matter and he told that these men had been killed. The commanding officer sent 15 or 20 soldiers with claimant's brother down to where the dead men were. On the night of the 21st and the morning of the 22nd about 2 or 3 o'clock claimant was wounded in the arm by the Apaches. On attacking party--it was night and he could not tell how many there was--the other men at the ranch was shooting and drove them off. Claimant went up to the hospital where there was a Doctor on account of his wound. On the 30th of the month (May) and before his brother had moved the camp up to the Post. His brother went every morning to the ranch taking care of the crops. Claimant left the hospital in about 15 days. On the 30th of May when they attacked his brother he had five yoke of oxen and seven horses on that ranch. The Indians took 5 of the horses and all of the oxen, leaving 2 horses. At the time claimant was shot

In December, 1860, we were planting wheat a short distance from the hospital at the Novitiate,--the field belonged to his father.

During all three raids from 1858 to 1871 these Indians were at war with the people of Tucson and vicinity, and from long before that. Claimant was 20 years old in 1858 and there were always old and practical persons with them following the Indians. Claimant judged by their experience and his own. His experience was from always seeing and being with cattle on the range, and having followed the Indians and seeing their people. He saw them make an attack on Tucson in 1851 and kill a Mexican. He owned the cattle claimed at that time since 1856. The sheep belonged to his father. He bought the cattle by planting and selling wheat and barley and raising cattle. He had accumulated sufficient capital, then 16 years old, to buy 200 head of cattle. He worked for his father till 1856, and his father helped him with what to work, but did not pay him wages. Claimant bought 15, 20 or 25 head of cows and then commenced to raise cattle. Did not own the 200 in 1856, but commenced to buy and raised them. Many of the calves died. We started in the evening after them and the men returned and he came back and left the same night to follow them again. Nine persons went out with him. All are dead except one and he is somewhere around Fort McDowell, Salt River. Could not count the dead cattle as it was night and they were travelling. We reached Tres Alamos about 9 A.M. We never saw the Indians, but their fires and where they had been eating the fresh meat. At that Canyon of Pantano we recovered one cow. The Indians went in the direction of the Graham Mountains, the same route as the Sierra Blanco. The cattle lost at that time were from 2 to 9 years old. They took no sheep. Never had an difficulty with the Indians before they took the cattle. Had a fight with them in 1859

The next raid occurred in April, 1871, here at San Xavier. Not less than 50 head of stock was lost then, and we got back 7. They killed them all on the road except 7 head that he recovered. 50 head was the number actually lost, taking out the 7 head that were recovered. They drove away 50 odd head. Claimant did not count any of the dead cattle on the road.--it was his brother that counted them. Claimant left with a party and met him. Of his own knowledge does not know how many were killed; but knows 7 were recovered. That stock was worth not less than $30 or $35 per head. They were worth from $25 up. Cattle were not cheaper than that in 1871. There were no other cattle there then but mine and those of Jose Maria Martinez. Since 1859 claimant had been fighting the Indians and had killed one. They saw me. The Indians seemed to have the same feelings towards everybody,--Americans, Irishmen, Dutchmen, Papagos and Scotchmen. Has not sold this claim. Mrs. Strauss has an interest. (By Claimant's attorney, Mrs. Strauss has a power of attorney.)

Question made and objected to, and answered: Yes, sir interesting her to the amount that she may pay her attornies. She is to receive one-third part of what the Government allows to pay the lawyers that claimant may employ in this case and he has assigned her a one-third interest for that purpose and to pay herself.